We had Bill McKibben visiting work yesterday. He gave a good talk and stayed for lunch.
Bill has been in Wanaka and started his talk with a compelling story of an experience in Tibet, of glaciers melting and significantly changing landscape in an area that provides the water supply for a huge proportion of mankind. He talked about a feeling of helplessness that he didn’t like and how now he is committed to achieving real change.
The opportunity to do something on a scale that might actually matter
Talking to about 200 of Dunedin’s committed sustainability folks, Bill read his crowd and didn’t dwell on “how deep in trouble we are”. He did, though, talk about feedback loops “once things start happening, they take on a hideous life of their own”. As an example here he talked about Boreal forest dieback and the pine beetle (of much interest to me as I once worked as a landscape ecologist studying forest dynamics in the Boreal forests in northern Manitoba – hence me spending too long reading about that tangent this morning). He talked of the Epic drought in Australia and America and so on.
He says that unlike previous environmental issues, carbon is not marginal to the economy – there’s no way around it except by addressing the combustion of fossil fuels. If aliens were to visit earth today, he says, their report would be that “the planet is covered with flesh colored devices for the combustion of fossil fuels”. Carbon is “so fundamental to the economy, it is defended both by inertia and powerful vested interests”.
“Time is short”, he says, and we’re at the point where even immediate responses won’t do the trick:
While individual action is necessary, it is not sufficient, these individual actions can’t add up in time – we need to use multiplication
McKibben’s talk was called “The Road to Copenhagen – how planning and action in Dunedin can solve the global climate crisis”. While I’m not convinced by the “solve”, the message is that by participating in the 350 movement, we can make difference. That difference is to radically change the goals of leaders at the next climate conference (in Copenhagen).
The number 350 refers to the level of atmospheric carbon that Dr Jim Hansen describes as necessary to avert dangerous climate change (paper, testimony). 350, McKibben says, provides a global rallying point to “drive the number into prominence”.
We need to set the psychological bar at 350, make it difficult to have another tepid treaty
McKibben was accompanied by an entourage of young people, mostly students who are throwing a lot of effort into the NZ end of the movement: 350.org.nz.
I would have like to see more critical discussion (what is the sensitivity on the target – would 360 do? – some strongly argue for 300ppm 1. others argue that even unlike 350 “450. Implausible? Yes. Impossible? No” or those who say that 450 is beyond our reach). As always, the most interesting thoughts come in the questions, when the speaker expands on the script. Fortunately, McKibben was more than up to it:
Q: Are the global governance models up to the ethical dilemmas that will need to be faced to achieve the goal (once set).
A: Time is short. We don’t get to choose the world – sure it might be easier if the whole world adhered to a nature based religion, but they don’t. The only lever large enough to move systems in the time we have is the market. We need to inject one piece of information into the market – that carbon carries a very high price. A 350 limit will be quickly followed by a cap on carbon, this will see an “unleashing of innovation” (reflecting Krupp’s optimism). He acknowledges that this the
biggest challenge that humans have faced but it is our ethical obligation to the poorest and most vulnerable people and to the endless number of future generations not to leave them a planet pauperised beyond anything we can imagine
Q: What is McKibben’s thoughts on proposals to pump sulphur into the atmosphere?
A:
The largest experiment of all time – combusting fossil fuels – has failed, are we really suggesting that we rely on a geo-engineering experiment on an equally vast scale? In hoping that we could moderate the temperature by creating a smog to stop light getting through in the first place, we would see truly catastrophic consequences, unpredictable and large scale effects. It would be enormously expensive and incredibly politically problematic. Worse, this type of suggestion reveals the depths of our addiction – it is junkie logic.
Q: Beyond acting on a single day (24th October), shouldn’t we all become vegetarians?
A: Eating lower on the food chain is sensible. With a price on carbon we will have to change many things. Some will change for us, the industry of producing low cost meat is massively dependent on fossil fuel – the American style of food will not survive that.
Q: Should we be focussing on local organic food production?
A:
Local distribution has a clear environmental benefit. Perhaps more important than that is that we are the first people in our species with no need for neighbours. The farmers’ market is a social experience. We need to rebuild human networks to create communities that can make the changes, and survive the changes we can’t prevent. The momentum of globalisation is at a high point built on the availability of fossil fuel. This will change. It is wider than food but the icons of the new world will be the solar panel and the farmers’ market
Q: If personal initiatives are not enough, and neither are similar changes to businesses, then what are the personal and internal changes we have to adapt into lives?
A:
This is the nub of the matter. The chicken and the egg problem: attitudes and circumstances. We’ve battled for years to convince people SUVs weren’t a good idea. Then last year four weeks of high oil prices and suddenly thousands discarded the illusion that they were forest rangers. Cheap fossil fuels spawned a era of hyperindiviualism, now we need to move back towards community mindedness. Those urban forest rangers have discovered that the train is actually more sensible and pleasant. So now they’re happy that we’re investing in trains. This is a great example that the new world is not a lesser experience – but rather a sweeter world.
leighblackall
May 2, 2009
Actually my question (the first one you paraphrase) was:
Assuming the 350 campaign works, and it does pressure international governments to meet the carbon caps, have any of the campaigners given any consideration to what the ethical limits might be for those govs in meeting those caps?
When Bill asked me to explain more, I gave examples of what some might consider over the line:
*World Government
*Laws and actions that unfairly impact on people’s lives and freedoms.. (expanding here, would it be right to enact sanctions, invade, or force nation states to meet caps? Because he and others certainly make it sound that serious)
*Cultural bias and insensitivity – considering Bills words of “those with us”, without defining who “us” actually are. Does he mean the less than 20% of the world who have access to a phone line?
*And what about some leading geologists and meteorologists challenging the models and forecasts of climatologists that the 350 campaign goal is based on? Is it ethical that they ignore their contributions to the issue?
This list could go on, and I left feeling more than a little alarmed at the shallowness of the campaign message and messengers.
I didn’t have time to ask my last question (or make the comment), but it was in relation to Bill describing the disproportionate political and economic power that fossil fuel companies have over the world, and how he was using that as a rationale for why the 350 campaign needs to be somehow equally powerful in its message – in order to rock that political power. My thought at the time was that to affect the power that fossil fuel companies have would probably require something like “absolute power”, and we all know what they say about absolute power… what I mean to say is that the way in which the campaign is being expressed, and the lack of thought gone into it apart from how to pull off a large media stunt, causes me a lot of concern.
Maybe I should post all this on my own blog instead..
Steven Parker
May 3, 2009
Q: “What is McKibben’s thoughts on proposals to pump sulphur into the atmosphere?”
A – “In hoping that we could moderate the temperature by creating a smog to stop light getting through in the first place, we would see truly catastrophic consequences, unpredictable and large scale effects. It would be enormously expensive and incredibly politically problematic”
THE BAD NEWS the atmosphere and biosphere have been and are currently being massively polluted for ‘sustainability’ of global warming, tonnes of sprayed aerosolised particulates of barium sulphur dioxide (Acid rain), aluminium are being dumped over people’s heads…and then some. This is A REAL ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUE don’t you think?
http://www.youtube.com/user/stopchemtrails
DID ANY OF THE ‘ENVIRONMENTALLY CONSCIOUS’ AUDIENCE EVEN BRING THIS UP IN RESPONSE TO HIS RESPONSE TO THE QUESTION?
———————–
Google news geo-engineering.
http://www.examiner.com/x-9111-SF-Environmental-Policy-Examiner~y2009m5d1-Lets-outsource-our-geoengineering-to-fight-global-warming
http://daily.sightline.org/daily_score/archive/2009/04/28/the-danger-of-geoengineering
Steven Parker
May 3, 2009
Read this in relation to Leigh’s points about global warming global governance and absolute power and the obvious ethical dilemma’s
Geoengineering and the New Climate Denialism – http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/009784.html
http://leighblackall.blogspot.com/2009/05/theres-something-fishy-about-global.html
Samuel Mann
May 3, 2009
Steven – sorry, I don’t get it. Even if Chemtrails were real (seems quite strongly refuted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory), where’s the “massively polluted for sustainability?”. Also, McKibben’s answer was to discredit Geotechnical solutions, are you suggesting he supports it?
Samuel Mann
May 3, 2009
Leigh, I agree with your comments here and on your own show that there should be more critical discussion. Such a talk though is a difficult balance, meeting the needs of several audiences. The healthy skepticism and academic questioning that we might pose can easily be misinterpreted as disagreement. For example, while I still don’t completely understand your ethics question, surely the ethical challenges of inaction are greater than those you raise – yet your comments could be interpreted as “it’s too hard, better do nothing” (not by me you understand!). So, should McKibben talk more about the consequences of setting the goal at 350? Possibly, but not at the cost of of the major first hurdle of actually getting a goal set at 350.
Steven Parker
May 3, 2009
Hi Bill
OK the key point is that there are EXTREME differences in the way Mckinnon and his audience and the ‘Climate Change sceptics’ (for want of a better term) interpret information,and a reason why. I recommend reading Leigh’s post and his comments on the quality of Mckinnon’s presentation, i.e. his shallowness, lack of critical thinking based on real contrarian data in the media(References are in Leigh’s post).
http://leighblackall.blogspot.com/2009/05/theres-something-fishy-about-global.html
Mckinnons lack of (purposefull) critical thinking is evidenced in his reply on the sprying of sulphur. A good question. Someone in his ‘expert’ position would know fine rightly that geoengineering is already occuring it’s evidenced everywhere on the web and in scientific journals. As well as seeing with one’s own eyes.
ASK YOURSELF WHAT IF HE ACKNOWLEDGED IN THE PRESENTATION THAT GEOENGINEERING IS ALREADY OCCURING TO COMBAT CLIMATE CHANGE?
The moral case for his argument to reduce carbon to 350 collapses, the well meaning audience doesn’t want to pollute the atmosphere to save the planet does it?
Here’s an example of the upcoming spin to keep the climate change charade (good guys, Environmentalists) and geoengineering (Bad guys, big business, Climate denialists) going. Obfustication to get people on board with a carbon economy?
‘Geoengineering and the New Climate Denialism’ – http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/009784.html
My point is based on the premise that chemtrails, geoengineering are real right?
As to whether you can convince yourself that chemtrails or geoengineering are real I recommend you click on the infowars link and spend five minutes reading the information on this website. Esp. the information of the bad health effects of the elements on humans spraying with geoengineering chemicals:
http://www.infowars.com/the-government-is-already-geo-engineering-the-environment/
Some deeper research beyond wikipedia chemtrails conspiracy stub is required to figure it out.
Just go to google news http://news.google.com.au/news?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&hs=QZT&q=geoengineering&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn
Google CFR and geoengineering.
The youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/stopchemtrails has some good videos of the chemtrails.
Beyond researching it for yourself there’s not much that can be done to convince.
Steven Parker
May 3, 2009
http://www.infowars.com/chemist-proposes-polluting-atmosphere-to-fight-global-warming/
Samuel Mann
May 3, 2009
Steven. I used to live in Nebraska. By the end of the day the sky would be full of criss-crossed trails – some compact and others expanding. This summer my kids and I played a game of wondering what form the trails would take in the sky above southern New Zealand. Videos of different trails are no evidence of anything sinister. Neither are media reports of trials of trails (got to use, it – been typing it that way all afternoon). In your response to your question “Ask yourself what if he acknowledged…?” I’m drawing a blank – McKibben wants us to take action (and if you read my post you’ll see I would like to see more debate, so pointing me to Leigh agreeing with me is a bit pointless), and McKibben questions the use of geoengineering solutions as they are too complicated (physically and politically) and they are an excuse to carry on with the oil addiction. So, even if he agreed that trials of trails are going on, how would it change his argument?
Steven Parker
May 3, 2009
Yes references to videos of trials is not evidence (Even though it’s dammed un-natural to see the Sydney criss crossed sky as chemical peasoup).
What published evidence of geoengineering, the methods, aerisolised chemical put foward in the media, and in scientific journals have you read?
Here’s something to get your started.
http://www.cfr.org/project/1364/geoengineering.html
McKinnon wants us to take personal action to reduce carbon to combat global warming,be more environmentally aware, great.
Spraying sulphur and metal particulates into the atmosphere, polluting the environent to save the environment that’s a difficult sell even for him, I can see why he would immediately disagree with geoengineering in principle.
My point is McKinnon surely is disingenuous he would be aware that geoengineerng is already going on, he’s lives and breathes climate change science for goodness sake. There are heaps of academic papers from a long way back on the practice of geonengineering (Chemtrails) occuring.
http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=geoengineering%20particulates&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=ws
From what I make the point Leigh made is there wasn’t any deep discussion of contrary information like this in Mckinnons presentation.
There are many, many people in the scientific community putting forward contrary evidence to what Mckinon is saying on his site.
Yes it’ good to have more debate, I recommend either you or Leigh contacting these guys and organising a presentation. http://www.climatescience.org.nz/
Steven Parker
May 3, 2009
‘So, even if he agreed that trials of trails are going on, how would it change his argument?’
Maybe if he agreed he would drop his focus with fighting for the reduction of carbon in the atmosphere (Devil gas ;-)and turn to fighting the aerosolised spraying of chemical metal particulates with bad human health benefits into the the atmosphere.
Which would you prefer?
Steven Parker
May 3, 2009
McKinnon wants us to take personal action to reduce carbon to combat global warming,be more environmentally aware, great.
Spraying sulphur and metal particulates into the atmosphere, polluting the environent to save the environment that’s a difficult sell even for him, I can see why he would immediately disagree with geoengineering in principle.
My point is McKinnon surely is disingenuous he would be aware that geoengineerng is already going on, he’s lives and breathes climate change science for goodness sake. There are heaps of academic papers from a long way back on the practice of geonengineering (Chemtrails) occuring.
http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=geoengineering%20particulates&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=ws
From what I make the point Leigh made is there wasn’t any deep discussion of contrary information like this in Mckinnons presentation.
There are many, many people in the scientific community putting forward contrary evidence to what Mckinon is saying on his site.
Yes it’ good to have more debate, I recommend either you or Leigh contacting these guys and organising a presentation. http://www.climatescience.org.nz/
Steven Parker
May 3, 2009
Yes references to videos of trials is not evidence
(Even though it’s dammed un-natural to see the Sydney criss crossed sky as chemical peasoup).
What published evidence of geoengineering, the methods, aerisolised chemical put foward in the media, and in scientific journals have you read?
Here’s something to get your started.
http://www.cfr.org/project/1364/geoengineering.html
McKinnon wants us to take personal action to reduce carbon to combat global warming,be more environmentally aware, great.
Spraying sulphur and metal particulates into the atmosphere, polluting the environent to save the environment that’s a difficult sell even for him, I can see why he would immediately disagree with geoengineering in principle.
My point is McKinnon surely is disingenuous he would be aware that geoengineerng is already going on, he’s lives and breathes climate change science. There are heaps of academic
papers from a long way back on the practice of geonengineering (Chemtrails) occuring.
http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=geoengineering%20particulates&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=ws
From what I make the point Leigh made is there wasn’t any deep discussion of contrary information like this in Mckinnons presentation.
There are many, many people in the scientific community putting forward contrary evidence to what Mckinon is saying on his site.
Yes it’ good to have more debate, I recommend either you or Leigh contacting these guys and organising a presentation.
http://www.climatescience.org.nz/
Samuel Mann
May 3, 2009
Steven,
For us to approach a sustainable future, systems thinking is required and a holistic approach that understands relationships across scales of space, time, societies and species. If you look through the back-issues of this blog, you will see I am quite critical of those who see sustainability as a one-shot issue with simple solutions – whether it be climate change, or poverty or anything else without considering wider systems. Often, though, focussing on actions that you can take that make a difference to real issues is a sensible way of approaching that complexity – be it cleaning up a local stream or trying to get world leaders to agree to try lessen our dependency on oil. So, I’m quite happy that he is fighting carbon in the way he is. I’m sure when there’s real evidence for systematic pollution as you describe (beyond small scale scientific trials) then it would be sensible for people to pay attention to that. At the moment, since you ask, I would prefer he work on the recognised issue of climate change.
Steven Parker
May 3, 2009
I aprecciate your points Bill.
‘a sustainable future, systems thinking is required and a holistic approach that understands relationships across scales of space, time, societies and species.’
One of the most striking articulations of this idea is David Holmglens Permaculture book. Do you have it? If so I’d like to reference you to p4 P5. It shows a good illustration of a creative union of holistic science vs a destructive union of science. It would be interesting to get your opinion if you can get your hands on the book. If you can (Leigh has a copy). Lets just say the global warming science is valid do you think that the scientific systemisation of carbon (A bilogical life cycle gas) reduction in all human activities will lead to destructive or creative sustainable society for people from a human point of view. I think destructive in that carbon reducation is biocentric model with primary focus on the reduction of carbon output to the environment not on anthropocentric systems integration with human activity.
The geoengineering spraying globally can is alogical outcome of biocentric thinking.
http://www.cfr.org/project/1364/geoengineering.html
Not good for humans, but that’s ok, it’s biocentric rationlisation?
Steven Parker
May 3, 2009
Environmentalism Is the New Religion – Ian Plimer
This relates to the point I have in mind with my biocentric rationalisation point.
Steven Parker
May 4, 2009
Bill, do you see any darkly hilarious irony in this information about Mckibben’s funding 350.org source?
http://www.rbf.org/close_ups/close_ups_show.htm?doc_id=727883
Same people fund and own these companies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Mobil
Was any reference made to McKibben’s association by the audience?
dave
May 4, 2009
and
Steven is addressing Bill through Sam’s blog?
Sam!! Have you been channeling again? You know you need to stop that!
Steven Parker
May 4, 2009
Look you got me! I am off work with swine flu :-) so that’s my excuse, my grammar and spelling also suck.
What do you think of Bill Mckibben’s patrons for the 350.org project?
http://www.rbf.org/close_ups/close_ups_show.htm?doc_id=727883
They also fund and own these companies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Mobil
Do you think there is there anything odd about it?